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3d - Printworx

Filament has become brittle.

Started by Bad Raven, Thursday,August 29, 2019, 07:42:35

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Bad Raven

My two favourite reels of filament have both become really brittle. They are different make and origin, but both PLA.  One HK transparent red, a very shiny filament, the other PolyPlus grey, a very matt filament.  Both are approaching a year old or so.

One suddenly fractured into several pieces during a print, inc inside the PTFE tube from the extruder on the Fabrikator Mini. (And it then on trying to clear and reset it blocked the extruder which I still have to clear).The other was sitting exposed on the spool holder of my Mk3, printer off, when there was a sudden "twang" and it fractured around 150mm up from the extruder entry.

Handling both afterwards (while still in the heat conditions) proved they both fractured cleanly with little effort if flexed. This is the same today in a mere 20C.

But if anything I'd have expected the opposite when room temp in the near 30's.

Up to now I have had no issues in storage or use, pretty much any filament (PLA) has worked well with little effort, so it was a bit of a shock to have these two "fail" as they have. I store in their plastic bags with a dessicant bag inside, and in their boxes.

 :hmm:    :shrug:

HobbyKing Fabrikator II Mini, 100x100x100. (a Malyan printer re-badged) - Modded with magnetic Flex Bed

Original Prusa i3 Mk3 (All Black)

dp106

I have had the same thing happen with my Hobbyking filament. I assumed it was just because I had not stored it properly.  I have found though it only seems to be the end of the roll, if I removed the last bit I could then use it to print again but leave it a few days and the end would again be brittle

Gaza07

Thursday,August 29, 2019, 11:34:28 #2 Last Edit: Thursday,August 29, 2019, 11:36:03 by Gaza07
I read some where that if PLA absorbs moisture it goes brittle a lot use the food dehydrator to dry it out like the one in the link, I know Paul Hozza has one not sure if hes used it yet prob gonna get one at some point to  ~~

Food Thing

Custom built delta with Flex3Drive Gen 4 / Duet Electronics 330mm build area
Custom built delta with Flex3Drive Gen 4 / Duet Electronics 180mm build area
AnyCubic 4max XY printer 210x210x300 build area
AnyCubic Kossel Mini 180x180x300 build area
Geetech A10M Dual Colour 220x220x260 build area
Kelant Orbeat D100 DLP/SLA

Multi-Rotor UK  YouTube  Thingiverse  3d-Printworx

Hozza

Thursday,August 29, 2019, 19:11:44 #3 Last Edit: Thursday,August 29, 2019, 19:14:54 by Hozza
Never had brittle pla and it sits in the open air, never gets wet never changes the way it prints and sometimes rolls are 3 years old
Makibox (sold)
i3 custom build (sold)
Smartcore (sold)
Kossel XL Duet3D based, with Flex3drive (working)
HEVO Hybrid (worlds slowest build)
Kossel Mini Duet3D based, with Flex3drive (working)
Geeetech A10M (sold)

Gaza07

I have had PLA go brittle but mostly at the end, I was wondering if you had tried the dehydrator you bought Paul but I suppose not if you haven't had any problems  ~~

Quote from: Hozza on Thursday,August 29, 2019, 19:11:44 Never had brittle pla and it sits in the open air, never gets wet never changes the way it prints and sometimes rolls are 3 years old
Custom built delta with Flex3Drive Gen 4 / Duet Electronics 330mm build area
Custom built delta with Flex3Drive Gen 4 / Duet Electronics 180mm build area
AnyCubic 4max XY printer 210x210x300 build area
AnyCubic Kossel Mini 180x180x300 build area
Geetech A10M Dual Colour 220x220x260 build area
Kelant Orbeat D100 DLP/SLA

Multi-Rotor UK  YouTube  Thingiverse  3d-Printworx

Hozza

I only use the dehydrator on PETG and ABS

How do you store your PLA Gaz?
Makibox (sold)
i3 custom build (sold)
Smartcore (sold)
Kossel XL Duet3D based, with Flex3drive (working)
HEVO Hybrid (worlds slowest build)
Kossel Mini Duet3D based, with Flex3drive (working)
Geeetech A10M (sold)

Gaza07

I leave it laying about if used regularly or stick it back in its bag with a laggy band round it and the silica gel pack in there, Ive only seen brittle PLA on such as the 4max when it hasnt been used for a while and only seems to be the end of the roll  ~~
Custom built delta with Flex3Drive Gen 4 / Duet Electronics 330mm build area
Custom built delta with Flex3Drive Gen 4 / Duet Electronics 180mm build area
AnyCubic 4max XY printer 210x210x300 build area
AnyCubic Kossel Mini 180x180x300 build area
Geetech A10M Dual Colour 220x220x260 build area
Kelant Orbeat D100 DLP/SLA

Multi-Rotor UK  YouTube  Thingiverse  3d-Printworx

Hozza

Mine is stored like that, maybe sealing up has a detrimental effect?
Makibox (sold)
i3 custom build (sold)
Smartcore (sold)
Kossel XL Duet3D based, with Flex3drive (working)
HEVO Hybrid (worlds slowest build)
Kossel Mini Duet3D based, with Flex3drive (working)
Geeetech A10M (sold)

Bad Raven

Quote from: Hozza on Saturday,August 31, 2019, 09:13:21 Mine is stored like that, maybe sealing up has a detrimental effect?


Does make you wonder. I have always returned the reel to the bag with the silica bag in the centre hole.

Both the reels that have failed (and are ridiculously brittle, the slightest bend and they break clean in several sharp edged bits!!) are about 1/3 left, so would have been more tightly wound to the smaller diameter.
HobbyKing Fabrikator II Mini, 100x100x100. (a Malyan printer re-badged) - Modded with magnetic Flex Bed

Original Prusa i3 Mk3 (All Black)

Bad Raven

After further finds of reels that have become brittle, I have found by experiment that it affects only the end length, maybe as much as 200mm, then is OK. 

SO, on older reels I break off brittle bits a little at a time until it only bends, snip it off clean and angled to load, and everything is OK.

I can only assume from this that the effect is cut end generated, rather like damp penetrating capillary wise might give.
HobbyKing Fabrikator II Mini, 100x100x100. (a Malyan printer re-badged) - Modded with magnetic Flex Bed

Original Prusa i3 Mk3 (All Black)

Gaza07

Its funny that this should come up again ive had a couple of printers idle for a while with the filament still in the hot end these have developed brittle ends to,
I think maybe the end that has been heated up and then allowed to cool must allow the ingress of moisture, On my A10M the filament snapped when it was pulled by the extruder cutting it back a little as above and it was fine  :shrug: 
Custom built delta with Flex3Drive Gen 4 / Duet Electronics 330mm build area
Custom built delta with Flex3Drive Gen 4 / Duet Electronics 180mm build area
AnyCubic 4max XY printer 210x210x300 build area
AnyCubic Kossel Mini 180x180x300 build area
Geetech A10M Dual Colour 220x220x260 build area
Kelant Orbeat D100 DLP/SLA

Multi-Rotor UK  YouTube  Thingiverse  3d-Printworx

Bad Raven

I think the heating/cooling theory has weight, though a couple of mine have shown this brittleness back further than I would have expected the heat to travel. Maybe as you say it "opens the pores" of the filament and so moisture then gets to capillary further up inside.

In one case I had to remove about half a turn on the drum before getting back to flexible filament, and that was the max, so its not that the buried filament is the point of survival. 
HobbyKing Fabrikator II Mini, 100x100x100. (a Malyan printer re-badged) - Modded with magnetic Flex Bed

Original Prusa i3 Mk3 (All Black)

Hozza

I've found the BQ filament gets brittle when out stretched, my bowden tube is 700mm long and the filament after 2 days snaps off at the entry to it, the remaining length in the tube is broken up in many small pieces, if I remove it when print finishes that 700mm is fine being coiled back up. So I'm wondering if once out stretched it opens up the plastic to moisture.
Makibox (sold)
i3 custom build (sold)
Smartcore (sold)
Kossel XL Duet3D based, with Flex3drive (working)
HEVO Hybrid (worlds slowest build)
Kossel Mini Duet3D based, with Flex3drive (working)
Geeetech A10M (sold)

Gaza07

Yea ive noticed it more in BQ than others but some of the other brands do it  :shrug:
Custom built delta with Flex3Drive Gen 4 / Duet Electronics 330mm build area
Custom built delta with Flex3Drive Gen 4 / Duet Electronics 180mm build area
AnyCubic 4max XY printer 210x210x300 build area
AnyCubic Kossel Mini 180x180x300 build area
Geetech A10M Dual Colour 220x220x260 build area
Kelant Orbeat D100 DLP/SLA

Multi-Rotor UK  YouTube  Thingiverse  3d-Printworx

Bad Raven

A few more observations:-

1. With a bowden remote extruder drive Fab II Mini and a head mounted Prusa i3 Mk3, I cover both tube (push) and exposed (pull) filament drives. You might expect that the enclosed would suffer more from heat transfer up the filament length. Not so, no evidence to support.

2. I have been tracking the issue by using transparant filament so the issue might be seen. The answer so far is it can.   The transparant filament on the Mk3 will in several days left after use (exposed of course, no tube) produce visible fractures at 90 to the length at intervals from 1.5mm to 5mm over at least 80mm back from the end.  These are weak piont and flexure when cold breaks the filament clean.

I'm now removing at least 100mm before every print if the filament has been unused for 24 Hrs plus, and not experiencing problems.
HobbyKing Fabrikator II Mini, 100x100x100. (a Malyan printer re-badged) - Modded with magnetic Flex Bed

Original Prusa i3 Mk3 (All Black)